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Infinity Ziona
Cloakers
119
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Posted - 2013.06.23 03:45:00 -
[1] - Quote
Im against all forms of pay to win but since you can buy 10 years of skill training legally by buying a character, isk by buying plex, the game is already pay to win so I couldnt really care. At least the method you propose would be more expensive than character sales. |

Infinity Ziona
Cloakers
119
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Posted - 2013.06.23 07:10:00 -
[2] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Harry Forever wrote:so why not make it possible to purchase skill time direclty with plex? Because it's a horrible idea that fundamentally breaks the game. Also, because the entire premise is incorrect GÇö the problem you're trying to solve doesn't exist, so all you're doing is create new problems for no good reason. Buying characters and ISK broke the game a long time ago. |

Infinity Ziona
Cloakers
121
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Posted - 2013.06.23 10:26:00 -
[3] - Quote
Mag's wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:Tippia wrote:Harry Forever wrote:so why not make it possible to purchase skill time direclty with plex? Because it's a horrible idea that fundamentally breaks the game. Also, because the entire premise is incorrect GÇö the problem you're trying to solve doesn't exist, so all you're doing is create new problems for no good reason. Buying characters and ISK broke the game a long time ago. How so? Are you really asking me how circumventing all skill training and isk generation with real life money breaks a game? Would you take soccer seriously if you could buy goals? Would you play poker if your opposition could buy cards? This game is fun to play but thats all it is. In terms of compitition, WoW battlegrounds is more hardcore. |

Infinity Ziona
Cloakers
121
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Posted - 2013.06.23 10:55:00 -
[4] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote: Does buying a winning soccer team mean you will still win? You have to buy in to play poker so yes you have to pay for your cards. Buying a character is much different from buying SP. With SP it becomes PLEX for the FOTM, and that is bad it creates dissatisfaction as instant gratification leades to faster boredom.
Buying your soccer team is akin to subscribing. You still have to have ongoing training and so on. An analogy to buying characters and isk is buying off the refs so you an an advantage above and beyond the prescribed limitations.
The set limitations in EvE is skill training and isk. Buying that defeats any purposeful play.
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Infinity Ziona
Cloakers
121
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Posted - 2013.06.23 11:16:00 -
[5] - Quote
Kirimeena D'Zbrkesbris wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote: Are you really asking me how circumventing all skill training and isk generation with real life money breaks a game? Would you take soccer seriously if you could buy goals? Would you play poker if your opposition could buy cards? This game is fun to play but thats all it is. In terms of compitition, WoW battlegrounds is more hardcore.
With character market skill training is not circumvented - someone else spent a lot of time and real money training that character. Bad name, even worse looks and shady history are drawbacks. Soccer example is bad: you can buy players from other soccer clubs into your team if you have money. Poker example is even worse as it doesnt make any sense. You do realise there are people selling characters trained specifically and perfectly for a role. They have never undocked. Its just an obfuscated way of CCP offering fully trained chars through 3rd parties. |

Infinity Ziona
Cloakers
121
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Posted - 2013.06.23 11:19:00 -
[6] - Quote
Danika Princip wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote: Does buying a winning soccer team mean you will still win? You have to buy in to play poker so yes you have to pay for your cards. Buying a character is much different from buying SP. With SP it becomes PLEX for the FOTM, and that is bad it creates dissatisfaction as instant gratification leades to faster boredom.
Buying your soccer team is akin to subscribing. You still have to have ongoing training and so on. An analogy to buying characters and isk is buying off the refs so you an an advantage above and beyond the prescribed limitations. The set limitations in EvE is skill training and isk. Buying that defeats any purposeful play. No, the set limitation in EVE is Time. Buying a character means someone else did it, but time was still spent. Oh please.
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Infinity Ziona
Cloakers
122
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Posted - 2013.06.23 11:51:00 -
[7] - Quote
Mag's wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:Mag's wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote: Buying characters and ISK broke the game a long time ago.
How so? Are you really asking me how circumventing all skill training and isk generation with real life money breaks a game? Would you take soccer seriously if you could buy goals? Would you play poker if your opposition could buy cards? This game is fun to play but thats all it is. In terms of compitition, WoW battlegrounds is more hardcore. You don't circumvent training, you trade ISK for someone else's time in doing the training and spending their time and money. Also you didn't answer the question, how so? How has this been breaking the game since 2004? Someone elses time is irrelevant. A noob with RL cash can be flying a titan in less than 24 hours. A noob with none has to wait a long long time. The first noobs gets blown up he can be back in a titan in a few hours. The second a long long time. The second noob is restricted by EvEs limitations. The first ignores them entirely. Thus the game is pointless in regards to competition.
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Infinity Ziona
Cloakers
122
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Posted - 2013.06.23 11:55:00 -
[8] - Quote
Kirimeena D'Zbrkesbris wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:You do realise there are people selling characters trained specifically and perfectly for a role. They have never undocked. Its just an obfuscated way of CCP offering fully trained chars through 3rd parties. Have you ever thought where your food comes from? It doesnt magically appear when you pay money, it takes time and effort produce raw material, process it and transport to nearest shop so it would be convenient for you to go and buy. Same with characters in EvE: time and effort were spent, you just purchase the end product. What you're not factoring into that equation is the time and effort required to make that cash to purchase that food. Since you can make money out of game and buy in game money your argument falls apart. There is no equality of effort. |

Infinity Ziona
Cloakers
122
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Posted - 2013.06.23 12:50:00 -
[9] - Quote
Mag's wrote:Let's say a Titan plus char and fittings is somewhere in the low region of 150 Billion. If someone wants to fork out -ú4177 to fly a Titan and lose it, then let them. If they lose it (which they will) and then spend another -ú3338 to get another then they are not 'winning' at Eve, they are merely being stupid with their cash and lot's of other people get play time.
But how does this break the game? Both the char, Titan and fittings, were all existing within the game already. The time and normal game mechanic to create those items were already played out. He merely circumvented the time aspect of the game. Someone else's time is completely relevant in this regard. If they hadn't spent the time training, buying, building, mining, trading and ratting for those items, they wouldn't exist.
So how has this been breaking Eve since 2004? It makes competition pointless. A game where competing is pointless is a broken game.
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Infinity Ziona
Cloakers
122
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Posted - 2013.06.23 15:01:00 -
[10] - Quote
Mag's wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:Mag's wrote:Let's say a Titan plus char and fittings is somewhere in the low region of 150 Billion. If someone wants to fork out -ú4177 to fly a Titan and lose it, then let them. If they lose it (which they will) and then spend another -ú3338 to get another then they are not 'winning' at Eve, they are merely being stupid with their cash and lot's of other people get play time.
But how does this break the game? Both the char, Titan and fittings, were all existing within the game already. The time and normal game mechanic to create those items were already played out. He merely circumvented the time aspect of the game. Someone else's time is completely relevant in this regard. If they hadn't spent the time training, buying, building, mining, trading and ratting for those items, they wouldn't exist.
So how has this been breaking Eve since 2004? It makes competition pointless. A game where competing is pointless is a broken game. How does it? Do they suddenly have skillz with the stuff they get? Does being a noob and owning a Titan make you uber and able to compete in Eve? I think not. Your stance is also saying those without RL money, can go screw themselves if they wish to play. Nice. So how has it been breaking Eve since 2004? I have answered your question multiple times. You appear incapable or unwilling to understand how buying your way with RL money in a competitive game breaks that game. I don't think further discussion will help. |

Infinity Ziona
Cloakers
123
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Posted - 2013.06.24 02:19:00 -
[11] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:Mag's wrote:Let's say a Titan plus char and fittings is somewhere in the low region of 150 Billion. If someone wants to fork out -ú4177 to fly a Titan and lose it, then let them. If they lose it (which they will) and then spend another -ú3338 to get another then they are not 'winning' at Eve, they are merely being stupid with their cash and lot's of other people get play time.
But how does this break the game? Both the char, Titan and fittings, were all existing within the game already. The time and normal game mechanic to create those items were already played out. He merely circumvented the time aspect of the game. Someone else's time is completely relevant in this regard. If they hadn't spent the time training, buying, building, mining, trading and ratting for those items, they wouldn't exist.
So how has this been breaking Eve since 2004? It makes competition pointless. A game where competing is pointless is a broken game. That does nothing to make competition pointless. Once on the battlefield SP has little to do with a pilots ability to use there ship. This is so wrong. SP and modules + ship are the most important thing in EvE. Pick any ship you like with any fitting I can teach a noob with all skills for that ship at 5's, T2 / faction / deadspace mods to fly it competently in an hour on test and kill a very experienced pilot in a lesser ship with skills trained to 3 for that ship and normal T1 modules.
People like to pretend player skill is important but its not. And it becomes less so the more people are added until its completely irrelevent in blobs.
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Infinity Ziona
Cloakers
124
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Posted - 2013.06.24 12:37:00 -
[12] - Quote
Danika Princip wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:Mag's wrote:Let's say a Titan plus char and fittings is somewhere in the low region of 150 Billion. If someone wants to fork out -ú4177 to fly a Titan and lose it, then let them. If they lose it (which they will) and then spend another -ú3338 to get another then they are not 'winning' at Eve, they are merely being stupid with their cash and lot's of other people get play time.
But how does this break the game? Both the char, Titan and fittings, were all existing within the game already. The time and normal game mechanic to create those items were already played out. He merely circumvented the time aspect of the game. Someone else's time is completely relevant in this regard. If they hadn't spent the time training, buying, building, mining, trading and ratting for those items, they wouldn't exist.
So how has this been breaking Eve since 2004? It makes competition pointless. A game where competing is pointless is a broken game. That does nothing to make competition pointless. Once on the battlefield SP has little to do with a pilots ability to use there ship. This is so wrong. SP and modules + ship are the most important thing in EvE. Pick any ship you like with any fitting I can teach a noob with all skills for that ship at 5's, T2 / faction / deadspace mods to fly it competently in an hour on test and kill a very experienced pilot in a lesser ship with skills trained to 3 for that ship and normal T1 modules. People like to pretend player skill is important but its not. And it becomes less so the more people are added until its completely irrelevent in blobs. You really have no idea, do you. Put your all Vs noob in his deadspace/officer fit vindicator, and send them in to scrap with someone who knows what they're doing in a T2 fit megathron, and see who comes out on top. Noob in Vindi wins
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Infinity Ziona
Cloakers
131
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Posted - 2013.06.25 07:03:00 -
[13] - Quote
Drake Doe wrote:Regardless of how pay to win the bazaar might seem, it's offset by the fact that someone had to put both time and money into creating that character and now they're seeking to sell their finished product. Without the time factor, everyone would be in the Fotm without even the slightest delay during, which would usually be offset by a balance pass, but this way everyone is instantly in the most unbalanced ship. And if you couldn't tell, that can easily kill a game.
Edit: got a bit off topic. Eh you can buy any flavor of the month character. All the person had to do was log on and change skills. Nothing else. Its identical to the old ebay sales of chars. You pay to skip training time. Pay to buy isk via plex. Its already pay to win. You can skip the entire game and play it like counter strike. Get blown up respawn, buy more ships n mods with visa, mastercard or paypal.
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Infinity Ziona
Cloakers
131
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Posted - 2013.06.25 13:08:00 -
[14] - Quote
Dorion Strag wrote:Sigras wrote:Harry Forever wrote:hey all good honestly, i just say what i experience as new player, maybe it helps maybe not... but its extreme how some veterans react, it feels a bit grim... I keep saying this every time this topic is brought up, but it's really a matter of inflation. That is why I dont want this in the game. every time a player passes the 100 million SP mark the value of every other player past the 100 million SP mark goes down just a little bit. This is how buying SP for a character (in any form) is different than the character market. Picture this: you have a one of a kind Rembrandt paining, worth millions, then someone finds in a cave somewhere 200 other paintings like yours by Rembrandt. Now your painting isnt worth half as much as it was. Even though you havent lost anything technically, youldnt you be a bit upset? This, this right here. Ignore all the bittervets crying about pay to win because this man knows whats going on. That said I still don't think its a clear cut case but it gives us the actual issue. What is better for the EvE comunity as a whole, the value of the high SP characters and the players that may leave if that value was lost or the ability for new characters to catch up to the rest and the potential new players it may bring? This is the real question that needs to be answered. No the actual issue is new players can skip up to 10 years of training by paying real life cash as well as fund any losses by paying cash. Pretend all you like but thats pay to win. |

Infinity Ziona
Cloakers
146
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Posted - 2013.06.26 13:34:00 -
[15] - Quote
Harry Forever wrote:Kirimeena D'Zbrkesbris wrote:Harry Forever wrote:StoneCold wrote:Only read the 1st post.
The idea was there like 1000 times allready. It-¦s bad. Nope, its even terrible. Maybe even terribad. NO.
If you want plex-for-skilltime -> char bazaar this way. when it was there a 1000 times, then maybe because there is an issue, no? NO, its because there are many new players that dont understand the game and want instant gratification as they used to get in other games. I'm gamer since over 30 years, I understand more about games like you ever will, trust me that when the game started the skill time was there to keep the game motivated and stay longer the more the game lasts the bigger problem and hurdle this becomes for new entrys thats why this needs some adjustemnt like I mentioned adding a possibility to buy 1 month of skillpoints with plex every 6 month in addition to the normal skillplan would help a lot and would not damage the mechanic at all Not true. If you have been gaming for 30 years you probably have played EQ, WoW type leveling games. In those games it takes a significant amount of time to level and gear out a max class (example enchanter). EvE is similiar in that it takes a significant amount of time to train a specialized class (example: ECM specialist in Falcon).
Ironically in EvE its quicker than in EQ.
What you are not getting is EvE like those games is full of classes (logi, dps frig, tackler inty, cap pilot- theyre just not as clearly defined and they have lots of crossover skills that wont need to be retrained for a new class unlike other games.
Its no harder to become an expert in EvE than those other games and while youre becoming specialized in one ship / role youre fullfilling requirements for others (engineering is needed for all ship roles / classes )
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Infinity Ziona
Cloakers
146
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Posted - 2013.06.26 14:12:00 -
[16] - Quote
Harry Forever wrote:
I do not take other games as measurment, as each game has its own logic, in eve more skilltime is needed for the early player, therefore the possibility to purchase more skilltime as an option and again limited maybe between 1-3 month of SP per year would be a good addition to the game, and would not harm anybody
I agree to everybody that the possibility to purchase unlimited skilltime might not be a good idea
You missed the point. Its no harder to train into most specialized ship roles than it was 10 years ago. Its easier now in most cases than it was in the past. There are a few exceptions (black ops, cap ships) but generally theres no need to worry about being 10 years behind because youre not unless you want to be good at everything.
Just like you cant expect to play WoW and be max level max geared in all classes / races quickly you cant expect that in EvE either.
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